Sprint Rules

[Mrs H]

Here's a question for you rules geeks.

When you have sprints with heats and finals - everyone who completes the A final will score more points (be they FCC or UK) than everyone in the B finals and so on.

What is the situation if someone mis-punched their way out of a final towards the end of their run (or anywhere else i suppose) do they have the option of going back out and re-punching from the point of the mis-punch given that even a last place will score more points than being in the lower final.

Looking at the results several FCC runners mis-punched themselves out of valuable points in the finals - but given the remoteness of the download and collecting in of maps and e-cards it was impossible to go back out and salvage the points.

I have seen people go back out at the JK and British championships having discovered at download that they missed a control near the end (or even the finish) and their results have stood.

[distracted]

No - that shouldn't be allowed. Once you've finished you've finished:

7.2.14 Competitors who have finished are not entitled to re­enter the competition area.

and surely people can't flaunt this after they've downloaded??

I vaguely remember something like this happening at the end of the mass start UK Cup/FCC race at Hambleden - can't recall exact details, but a group missed the final control, got to the finish but then realised. I don't know if they'd actually finished or not though...

[Mrs H]

Thanks Distracted it's good to know what the situation is -
I can distinctly remember seeing on several different occasions, runners heading back out from download to punch the last or penultimate controls at major events - I''m sure others have seen it happen too.

[PG]

But what is "finished". Suppose the finish control and final control are very close together and the finish is not accurately positioned. (Anybody who was at Portugal O Meeting 2008 last day will know the situation. They were both on the edge of thickish forest ,with this edge being perpendicular to the line of approach.) If you punch the finish first and then realise your mistake and go back to the final control, should you be disqualified? Surely the finish should be treated like any other control, so we need a definition of "finished" for rule 7.2.14 purposes. I would assume that it would be when you arrive at download.

[Harley]

I don't see how the 'finish' can be considered a control like any other. Beacause a) it usually has a huge sign saying 'FINISH' and, b), there is often a crowd of people next to it.

I distinctly remember a badge event (well I think it was a badge) where the final control was plainly visible from the finish. A couple of competitors arrived from an unexpected direction and punched the 'finish'. Someone at the finish, presumably a fellow team member, asked if they were sure they had punched the last control. They then realised their mistake and dashed out to punch correctly.

Imagine if someone had a 'non-competitive' team mate standing at any other control on the course, confirming that they had correctly punched a previous control? That would certainly not be allowed. At the finish there is too much opportunity to confer, compare routes etc. You should not be able to take advantage of this to then reenter the course to correct any mistakes.

So in my humble opinion, once you have punched the finish, that's it, no second chances.

[distracted]

Before electronic punching, "finished" would mean you'd crossed the finish line and handed over your control card. There was no going back then... as you couldn't! So why should the situation be any different now? With remote finishes, there's potentially ample opportunity to hop back into the forest. Is this a reason to ensure that finishes are manned, just to stop people cheating in this manner?

[Ed]

surely you just need to set the software to ignore any controls punched after the finish control? doesn't matter then if someone goes back out to punch every control in the forest, they won't count towards the result.

[King Penguin]

surely you just need to set the software to ignore any controls punched after the finish control? doesn't matter then if someone goes back out to punch every control in the forest, they won't count towards the result.

... and OD EMIT mini download did exactly this at a Night score earlier this year. I cleared the course apart from one I missed seeing on the map, punched the finish then immediately spotted the one I had missed on the map. I ran out and punched it then punched the finish again. It did not give me the points for the control I punched after the first finish punch - and then to punish me it also ignored my first finish punch and gave me the time from the second finish punch ! Now that's a way to discourage going back out ....

[distracted]

surely you just need to set the software to ignore any controls punched after the finish control? doesn't matter then if someone goes back out to punch every control in the forest, they won't count towards the result.

I think I'm right in that, for SI, there's a space on the card reserved for the finish punch. Would this be overwritten if you punched the finish again? With EMIT, the finish is seen as any other control (usually given number 249) and so in theory you could punch it multiple times...

[andy]

I think I'm right in that, for SI, there's a space on the card reserved for the finish punch. Would this be overwritten if you punched the finish again?

It is overwritten.

Scottish CSC round this year a white competitor had run his course and waited at the finish for a while for his sister, then he punched the finish again at the same time she did, a bit unfortunate really (but we hacked his time around so it was about right, it was only the white after all!)

[Spookster]

At a world champs sprint (Switzerland 2003 maybe?) Simone Niggl-Luder got away with punching the finish, then returning to punch the last control she had missed, then returning again to the finish. Although initially disqualified, I think the appeal succeeded and she was re-instated because she had gained no competitive advantage from her actions.

There were a few differences in that situation though - nobody told her to go back out, she realised herself and went back immediately, it was only a few tens of metres (within the finish arena), and it was under IOF rules not BOF rules.

[Harley]

[quote="King Penguin... and OD EMIT mini download did exactly this at a Night score earlier this year. I cleared the course apart from one I missed seeing on the map, punched the finish then immediately spotted the one I had missed on the map. I ran out and punched it then punched the finish again. It did not give me the points for the control I punched after the first finish punch - ....[/quote]

On my very first MTBO on Cannock Chase we were using contactless EMIT (first time I had ever useed EMIT too) - being an ex-cyclist I thought I might get a reasonable position, and I was going well. However, about 2/3 the way through my course (a score) my route took me past the finish (quite allowable as it was in the competition area and I did not use ant out of bounds tracks) and ... yep, unbeknown to me it recorded my finish and did not give me points for any of the controls afterwards, even though they were within the time limit. I thought the tecchies would be able to sort it - they didnt, and I was robbed. Am I bitter ?

So, if we are going to say that once you punch the finish, then you're finished, then we must make allowances for when the finish is punched accidentally as in this case.

[JennyJ]

At a world champs sprint (Switzerland 2003 maybe?) Simone Niggl-Luder got away with punching the finish, then returning to punch the last control she had missed, then returning again to the finish. Although initially disqualified, I think the appeal succeeded and she was re-instated because she had gained no competitive advantage from her actions.

There were a few differences in that situation though - nobody told her to go back out, she realised herself and went back immediately, it was only a few tens of metres (within the finish arena), and it was under IOF rules not BOF rules.

It was Gunilla Svard (5th) not Simone.

I remember Simone getting disqualified in the Euromeeting Sprint (also in Switzerland) during similar circumstances even though she'd won by over a minute even after going back out...

[Ed]

[quote="distracted"I think I'm right in that, for SI, there's a space on the card reserved for the finish punch.[/quote]
I guess that knocks my idea on the head then. Sounds like a weakness in SI's data model...

[Adventure Racer]

Presumably solved on a course which doesn't have too many controls by making the finish a normal punch rather than a finish punch.