Levies

[Mrs H.]

I've just finished doing my sums from last week's MADO event. I was very pleased with the turn out given the time of year, weather immediately prior (but thankfully not on the day) and the fact that we were rather out of area.

At the end of the day I think I will have cleared £25 on the event which disappoints me as I am going to be hard pressed by the end of the season to have saved enough money to buy any prizes (which last year proved very popular and sought after) - let alone the Feather flags I wanted - as the one Mr H. made from an Ikea shower curtain has died.

It costs me in the region of £150 to stage a MADO event - half of that amount is spent on advertising and promotion - without which no-one would come anyway. We have now recruited close on 100 paid up new members and given hundreds more regular positive orienteering experiences. Malvern and District based club membership is now 12 times the national average.

Now in business even the tax man (not known for his generocity) gives you an allowance for your genuine expenses before he starts making you pay - so why can't BOF do the same. A paltry £50 allowance before they start taking nearly half my adult entry fee is actually hampering the development of the series and may be the sole reason for putting the entry fee (delibrately low) up.

What do the rest of you think?

[Oldman]

You knew the rules before you ran the event.

I think there's an argument for making clear to each entrant what the levy is. More openness won't do any harm!

[Mrs H.]

You knew the rules before you ran the event.

What's that supposed to mean? Of course I knew he rules and I abided by them too- it doesn't mean I can't argue against them if I don't like them.

According to your argument I would be better advised not to have run the event at all - very progressive!

[lincolnsteve]

Sorry Mrs H but I agree with oldman, although I would of worded it better myself!

I think the £50 level is right and have no problems with it (our own Summer Series started getting into levy territory this year too so I know what it's like) end of the day the insurance British Orienteering provide along with all the other stuff has to be worth the small amount you are paying in levies.

If you have managed to recruit 100 more units (and well done to you!) then surly the club should have some money to buy some of the kit you wish to purchase, failing that try for grant money, given the success of the project I think you would stand a good chance of getting some pennies.

Out of interest how much are you charging adults to run?

Best of luck to you on the project!

[SeanC]

Mrs H, am I right in assuming that your basic philosophy is that we shouldnt be asking beginners to pay the BOF levy as we want to encourage them to come and try it? Then this implies that experienced orienteers, and particularly experienced adult orienteers, need to pay more somehow. Maybe a levy amnesty on TD1/TD2 standard courses with other courses paying more?

I think it might be too near Christmas to re-open this debate mind

[Mrs H.]

I'm not saying that - I could charge twice as much and still pay the same levy - there is no encouragement to keep the price down and/or promote the event to the wider public which is what we all should be doing. why do you think hardly anyone knows anything about orienteering - it'sd because if they hear about it at all it's the school ground stuff they get from their kids (which makes my kids cringe).

I'm charging £3 per adult and the key to the success of the venture has been the local advertising which costs about £1 per adult - lately I've also had FC levies to pay as well.

I think I've just about exhausted local grants - and they take time and energy to apply for which I'm running out of. I don't think the club will give me money to buy feather banners because they would not be for the whole club (we have them) just MADO.

I guess I'll just have to put up the entry fee next year and hope people will pay. On the other hand perhaps MADO will have run it's course by then and I can put my feet up and let our newly appointed RDO (whoever that might be) do some work round here for a change

[John Morris]

This thread will lead rapidly into a debate that's been running intermittently for at least (to my certain knowledge) a quarter of a century...


1st Question: What services should BOF provide for its membership?

2nd Question: Which of those services can be charged for at the point of use?

3rd Question: Which of those services can we persuade sponsors, partners or contract customers to pay for?

4th Question: In order to pay for the services still unfunded, how much should be levied from members on a per capita basis, and how much should be levied on a participation basis?

5th Question: Of those monies raised by participation levy, how much should be raised from what class/category of event and from what class/category of participant?

6th Question: How much should the participant's club, or the event organiser's club, intervene to protect or to surcharge certain classes of participant?

7th Question: If the answers to questions 2 to 6 cannot be agreed by the membership, should Question 1 be re-addressed?

8th Question: Having reached a stable set of solutions to Questions 1 to 7, does the resultant BOF still satisfy the essential criteria for a National Governing Body: (a) in the eyes of the IOF; (b) in the eyes of HM Government?

9th Question (should have been the starting point): What are the essential criteria in the eyes of (a) the IOF, (b) HMG?


And this is an important debate...

BUT, how often should we repeat it, how will we agree closure and record the consensus view, and how long should we leave it decently buried before the next disinterment/iteration?

I'm sorry if this seems unduly cynical but BOF's members have an unequalled (in my experience) talent for uninventing the wheel...


(And you'll notice that I haven't even touched on the apportionment of membership fees...)

[RJ]

We have no say on how much is spent on the attempt to put men on Mars, the amount of money spent on the National Health Service, the amount of money that Bill Gates spends on Aids.....

but we sure as hell have a say on what BOF is spending.... because that is our money. Well anyway.... we think we have a say.

And we sure as hell are going to have a say about it....

Perhaps we should just shut up!!

[Duncan]

Why don't you just put up the entry fee? Do you really think people won't come because it is £4 instead of £3? £4 seems a fairly small price for a "positive orienteering experience" (I've had negative orienteering experiences for three times that price). I expect £4 is still competitive when you compare it with other sports that might be on offer.

[seabird]

I'm charging £3 per adult and the key to the success of the venture has been the local advertising which costs about £1 per adult - lately I've also had FC levies to pay as well.

Mrs H apologies if I'm saying something you've covered earlier in your postings about MADO. The advertising seems costly. The advertising Aire are using for their informals is based around regular weekly articles in the local press which cost nothing, and entries on the web and (possibly) a few flyers. All of which are cost minimal. As a result we can charge £1 seniors and 50p juniors - provide pre-printed maps and make a small profit. I'm sure our treasurer could advise on the levy impact, but it certainly has not been raised as a problem at club meetings. Like your events these informals are proving good for local recruitment.

We're not providing prizes or an organised competition in the current series, which cuts costs - just trying to present orienteering as a fun and rewarding sport.

[SeanC]

Just to stir up the debate a bit.

I think there are 4 options here.

1) Mrs. H puts up the MADO event fees.
2) HOC subsidise MADO events (or increase the subsidy if there already is one), which presumably implies an increase in HOC badge/colour coded fees.
3) BOF subsidise MADO events somehow, which implies an increase in levies/BOF membership fee.
4) No more MADO, or a cheaper MADO.

Option 4 would be a shame. Option 1 or 2 more likely?

[Mrs H.]

Well thanks for the interest but the truth is there is another option. I could leave things as they are and not have any prizes or feather flags I am currently showing a small profit on the season. No MADO doesn't get any subsidies and has even paid for a string of new areas to be mapped from previous grants (some from BOF), So actually HOC does pretty well out of MADO rather than the other way round - but I still detect a certain reluctance from some quarters to give any further support - perhaps incase the results are devisive. Maybe I'm just being paranoid - but I feel that financially MADO has to be self-sufficient now.

As Mr H. will tell you, I am very demanding and like a certain degree of gloss on things with my name on, ( in a sort of "because I'm worth it" way). That is just vanity on my part- I just think things need to look as stylish as possible when we are trying to attract new interest. It obviously doesn't have to be like that.

I do take Seabird's point and I do get almost weekly items in the Gazette - but I don't think I could risk dropping the paid for adverts - they are reasonably distinctive and I think people are becoming condiioned to recognise them. Incidentally - the competative - league aspect is absolutely crucial - even beginners are desperate for points it seems.

[SeanC]

Maybe the quality of the prizes is something worth economising on? Assuming your customers are reasonably affluent, just getting a certificate and a round of applause and an excuse to chat might be almost as good?

Or maybe I smell a rat. Is the timing of this thread designed to encourage donations of unwanted christmas presents You might get some offputting gifts from orienteers mind. Anoraks, stuffed badgers, bramble bashers......

[DM]

MADO has introduced more people to the sport than many other initiatives, from what I have seen about it, increasing junior participation has been a repeated topic on here. Mrs H, you appear to have a good crop of juniors. If my understanding is correct, MADO focusses on juniors. As these juniors get older they may want to join clubs with seniors, HOC being the local one. Is there any way to make an arrangement with HOC for a fee per junior who makes the move. Not sure how much it would raise but it sounds like anything would help.

Sean C commented that the timing may be a way to get donations of prizes, so what if it is? How many of us don't get innapropriate presents that we have no use/space for that others may quite like as prizes.

Just one plea, can people with possible prizes please spread them around a bit, MADO included. MDOC are having their annual charity event at Lyme Park, just S East of Manchester on 6th January and always welcome donations for the raffle (must check our cupboards for that jar of fruit in liquer). Registration 10.30, mass start John O Goats, 3 courses, long 11 km, med 8 km and short 5 km. Last year we had seasonal snow just after the start. Also an African themed course for the smaller ones.

All entry fees go to the chosen charity as for charity event BO waive the fee.......

[PorkyFatBoy]

All entry fees go to the chosen charity as for charity event BO waive the fee.......

That's it, Mrs. H!! register MADO as a charity then you get to keep all the money

I guess that BOF could offer some kind of additional levy relief for a certain period for initiatives like MADO - eg £100 or £150 for a set period eg 3 years from start up. Otherwise aren't C5s exempt?, so why not define everything as a C5 - what's the difference between a C4/C5 (even a C3) these days?, but that's another arguement all together