Electronic punching disqualifications

[red adder]

In't car park someone was telling me how you will be disqualified for failing to have "punched" at a control if the control does not record on your SI Card even though the control box shows you did visit the site, and at a time that proves you took controls in order. Is this true I asked ? Evidently yes... its in the rules and not just an over-officious controller. Justification : you might have gained an advantage by not waiting the half second for the control to flash/bleep.

What utter *@$!!*. The sport is about proving you can navigate the course correctly. We have invested large amounts of money in some nifty technology. To not make full use of it to satisfy the odd pedantic type (who probably took great pleasure in disqualifying someone who had one pin just outside the prescribed box) is just plain stupid.

[ST]

and you'd be happy to be the person to have to interrogate all the boxes to prove that somebody had been there eh?

Maybe you should find some other way of gaining that 0.5s

[NeilC]

and to delay prize giving for a hour or so whilst a unit is recovered from the forest and read because someone swore blind they punched there. It's a good rule.

[mharky]

if your pin punches aint on your control card, you are disqualified. you dont ask people to go to the control, scrape off fibers of tyvec and send them away for analysis to see if you did actually visit the control.

Just punch the control, simple.

[Ernie_Wise]

I agree with the other replies. It can't hurt to wait for the beep. In the past if i've not been sure i've let it beep twice. If it doesn't beep at all use the manual punch.

[rocky]

a little anecdote which adds nothing to either side of the argument....

at the pwt race held in finland before jukola in 2002, local hero pasi ikonen finished in a time which put him in bronze medal position, 0.1secs ahead of Marius Bjugan of norway (and in line for a 250 euro cheque). however he was dsq'd for failing to register at a box.

the organisers bowed to the pressure of the spectators and media (it was televised i think) and retrieved and interogated the si unit, and found that pasi had visited the control. so he was reinstated and denied marius the 3rd place... despite the fact that if he had waited for the beep they would most likely have tied....

[gross2006]

The PWT story is ok when it's on TV and it's only 15 runners with something like twice as many helpers - it's no hassle.... but think of the other extreme... Scottish 6 Days.... 160 controls in forest.... 3500 runners... an impossible task

And as controller of Day 6 this year.... if you're SI card doesn't register & you don't use the back up punch then you'll be dqd..... same applies to M/W21E at the JK Day 1.... no register and no back up then dq'd (can't comment about day 2 or other classes... not my area of responsibility:)

[Henguest]

Why then have technology that records presence at a control when we then say we can't use this back-up. After 20 + years working with electronic equipment and software I know you do occasionally get virtually unexplainable glitches (especially given the working environment can be cold /wet). Isn't the fact that EMIT also has a backup punch evidence that problems can occur and you need backup. If its a small event then things can be sorted out when boxes have been collected in in the normal course of events. If its an important event then surely the competitor has the right to put in appeal, pay the fee and expect to have a reasonable investigation, and not to be fobbed off just because someone can be bothered to retrieve and check a box.

The technology is available.... as Red Adder suggests, use it.

[NeilC]

The technology is not available - reading the box will only determine that the competitor visited the control not that they punched correctly. Punching correctly quite reasonably requires the card to be held in long enough for the unit to write to the card and announce this fact by beeping/flashing.

[Ernie_Wise]

Thats a good point neil. Back in the day with the manual punches you'd never get away with saying; "oh well I held the punch in my hand but I didn't actually punch my control card with it". So why should you be able to get away with the equivalent when using SI?

[graeme]

Why then have technology that records presence at a control when we then say we can't use this back-up.

Well you can use it.

At the JOK chasing sprint last year someone was observed to punch but had no record on the card.
Instructions said not to punch the map in that circumstance.

Being generous types, we checked the box to convince ourselves it was down to punching too fast. There was no record. SI told us that the write to the box is instant, so we had no difficulty assigning the non-punch to equipment failure (especially when other competitors were found to have punched the map
there on not receiving the bleep - though it turned out that their cards did get written to. On recounting the story it was surprising how many similar incidents had happened.

Basically, SI is a fantastic system, but like any other battery powered electronics, its not infallible.

Personally, I think the rule is a bad one. Its not fair to DQ people with slower ecard - I'd say that if someone is unhappy enough to be prepared to shell out the formal protest fee we should interrogate the boxes.

Punching correctly quite reasonably requires the card to be held in long enough for the unit to write to the card and announce this fact by beeping/flashing.

Certain relay teams excluded, of course...

Graeme

[Brizzle]

Ok well someone explain why they can't make emit boxes bleep, and why you can only put the "BRICK" into the slot from one direction.

[gross2006]

Brains in SI is in the box in the forest, brains in EMIT is in the brikke.

If you could put EMIT in from any direction you wouldn't get a workable back up punch.

[Domhnull Mor]

Before I say any more, I think this rule is fine. I have been a victim of it myself but I agree that it is the only really fair approach.

Having said this, I was involved in an incident last month at my club's ski-o event where we reinstated a competitor. The fact that it was a World Champs selection race made it a bit more important to the girl concerned than at a "normal event".

What happened was that the EMIT brick we had supplied (a hired brick) failed to function so no controls were recorded. We noted a time at download so worked out an approximate time which placed her second last but she remembered coming in at the same time as another competitor so we then corrected the time, placing her 5th. Her's was the only brick to fail from about 200.

It was fortunate for us that she finished at the same time as someone else who knew her and we could confirm the time but we could only assume she had been to all the controls. Fortunately it was only a test of form rather than a straight-out selection race so she was satisfied with an approximate time. What would we have done otherwise? I don't know. Rules are rules but it takes a lot of balls to stand by them when your getting an ear bashing. Mind you, you could say it was our fault as we supplied the brick but this shows the importance of clear and check stations. A story for another time - forgetting to empty my SI brick before a long-o and having to use the pin punch at over half the controls only to be disqualified anyway.

[red adder]

The technology is not available - reading the box will only determine that the competitor visited the control not that they punched correctly.

Which is my point exactly - it proves that you visited the control - which is the important part of the sport, not the ability to shove a SI Card in a hole.