Ranking Lists

[pete.owens]

Yes, but when you live in these parts even local evening events tend to offer better quality orienteering than travelling to big events.

[SeanC]

There are 18 National events between now and the end of February, of which eight are South-East League events, seven are CompassSport Cup heats, and two are association championships.

That's quite a surprising statistic as you would think clubs would try and register some of their regional events as national events as a publicity device, hoping that this would attract an extra 5 or 10% entries. Why are clubs choosing to stick with regional events/Level C? Are the rules/requirements for national events putting clubs off? Or does it add little publicity value? (I must admit I just choose based on area and assume for a Sunday event the club will do a good job with organisation - nearly always the case ).

Although it's probably too much grief going from 4 to 3 levels, it may be much easier to redefine what a national or regional event is. Maybe it should be based on area quality for example, or how old the map is etc rather than somewhat trivial things like whether start blocks are allowed etc?

[rf_fozzy]

Why are clubs choosing to stick with regional events/Level C??

Being only very partially cynical, I suspect it's the fact it's easier to appoint controllers for a Regional Event.

For Regional Events, controllers can be from the same club and only require Level C Controllers

For National Events, controllers need to be from another club (used to be another regional association I believe - someone can correct me if incorrect) and need Level B Controllers, of which I am one of a handful under the age of 60ish....

I notice that many clubs in YHOA very rarely appoint external controllers now (I know we do try to do some Regionals with external controllers in AIRE), unless they absolutely have to - which for me isn't ideal practise for 2 key reasons: 1. It means that strange things that one club does that aren't good practise become embedded there and 2. It stops sharing of good practise from one club to another as regularly.

I'd guess a good few clubs put on zero National Level events now.

The rules for National and Regional Level events are broadly the same now.

[Scott]

Being only very partially cynical, I suspect it's the fact it's easier to appoint controllers for a Regional Event.

Level B Controllers, of which I am one of a handful under the age of 60ish....

I'd guess a good few clubs put on zero National Level events now.

I don't think that's cynical - I think it's perfectly accurate. Registering your event as a National brings extra constraints - the most notable of which is a significant increase in the difficulty of finding a controller - but no discernible benefits over registering it as a Regional.

I suspect we're trapped in a vicious circle where clubs aren't staging National events in part because it's too difficult to find a Level B controller, but we can't increase the number of Level B controllers because one of the prerequisites for being a Level B controller is that you must have planned a National event.

[SeanC]

It sounds like a problem that could be solved with a rule change.

I've pulled out the relevant rules from the BOF rules of foot orienteering.

The Organiser must be licensed, if not then their competency must be
established.
• The Planner must either have experience of planning the format(s) or have their
competency established.
• A Controller must be appointed who is Grade B or above and be perceived to be
able to act independently of event officials. To achieve this, ideally the Controller
would be from a different Region, but must be from a different club to the one
staging the event.

[awk]

That's just not true. How many National events have you been to recently? Certainly the summer multi-day races and regional championships tend to use the best areas and clubs make a bit of an effort for other national events from my experience.

Have you been to a YH Champs lately? The last one I went to (the weekend before last) was definitely 'just' a regional event. Very enjoyable, but not exactly above other equally enjoyable regional events. Pretty much the same with the other regional champs I've been to in the past couple of years, with just a couple of exceptions perhaps.

I suspect we're trapped in a vicious circle where clubs aren't staging National events in part because it's too difficult to find a Level B controller, but we can't increase the number of Level B controllers because one of the prerequisites for being a Level B controller is that you must have planned a National event.

Some of us just prefer to work on smaller, more local events! BTW, my next event as controller is for another club. I'm also another who hasn't a clue whether I've entered or am entering a National or Regional event - pretty much irrelevant (and National is certainly no guarantee of better quality, but then nor is Level A nowadays, where I think the ability to park cars appears to be rather more important than quality of area or courses - admittedly understandably so.

[Atomic]

That's quite a surprising statistic as you would think clubs would try and register some of their regional events as national events as a publicity device, hoping that this would attract an extra 5 or 10% entries.

I doubt it would increase entries by 10%, but it does come with some extra headaches, not just the controller:
- event dates need agreement with BOF to avoid clashes
- expectation of food / equipment vendors
- EOD expected for 'recreational' courses
- map printing is more restrictive
- backup punches must be available
- routegadget etc

Many of those things are found at lots of Level C events, but they move from nice-to-have to need-to-have. Personally I'd welcome a review of the A/B/C/D criteria - but I would also make the Levy a function of the event level.

I suspect we're trapped in a vicious circle where clubs aren't staging National events in part because it's too difficult to find a Level B controller, but we can't increase the number of Level B controllers because one of the prerequisites for being a Level B controller is that you must have planned a National event.

I was talking to a football referee recently - just local junior teams stuff... they get paid I think ~ £40 per match... and only have to put in about 2 hrs effort! We expect controllers to be there for much longer and do a lot more prep, albeit we might pay them some travel expenses. Perhaps if we were willing to pay officials, it would be easier to get controllers, especially younger controllers! Perhaps its even a way to help keep that 18-35 age range engaged... if rather than always being a cost you could recover some money too.

[rf_fozzy]

- expectation of food / equipment vendors
- EOD expected for 'recreational' courses
- map printing is more restrictive
- backup punches must be available
- routegadget etc

With the exception of the BOF fixtures point, none of these need be different to a Regional.

Food if available is good. If not, then meh.
EOD should be available at all events, except for major championships
Map printing these days is pretty much the same given everything is digital now
Back-up punches - meh. I'm unconvinced we need these even at major events. I ignore this for National events - it's pointless
Routegadget should be available for most events - even locals if you can manage it.

With regards the fixtures thing - generally as I understand it the dates are agreed well in advance even for regionals (2026 has just been drafted I believe). Might be a little more lead time for a National event, but again it's not that much different.

Really there is no difference between a National and Regional.

[Atomic]

- expectation of food / equipment vendors
- EOD expected for 'recreational' courses
- map printing is more restrictive
- backup punches must be available
- routegadget etc

With the exception of the BOF fixtures point, none of these need be different to a Regional.

Food if available is good. If not, then meh.
EOD should be available at all events, except for major championships
Map printing these days is pretty much the same given everything is digital now
Back-up punches - meh. I'm unconvinced we need these even at major events. I ignore this for National events - it's pointless
Routegadget should be available for most events - even locals if you can manage it.

With regards the fixtures thing - generally as I understand it the dates are agreed well in advance even for regionals (2026 has just been drafted I believe). Might be a little more lead time for a National event, but again it's not that much different.

Really there is no difference between a National and Regional.

OK but those are your opinions right? Because all of those things are in the rules for level B and not for C. And that's where a different controller might want to actually insist on following the rules.

Food - at the very least it needs to be very clear if its not available. If its billed as level B people will expect it, and if your actually rural that could be an issue.

Maps its not just about the printing (although B needs an approved printer not your local guy who does them on Friday night - which has implications for EOD/closing dates). Map scales are more restrictive (most are 1:10K). Sprint maps must not be >A4 and have max 2.5m contours.

I've only once used a backup pin punch and not everyone knew they should so everyone was given credit for having visited that defective control BUT if it had been a bigger event I'd expect someone to have kicked up a fuss. If your stakes all have punches its not a major extra hassle but its one more thing to check.

Scheduling and agreeing dates - if the 2026 diary is already being fixed, then with the challenges we all have getting permissions and identifying volunteers its no wonder that people call events C rather than B to give themselves flexibility on either date or venue or both.

Routegadget I probably agree with - but there is a rule distinction, which probably reflects how long since anyone last looked at A/B/C/D. The fact you are interpretting the rules to suit your own event also suggests the merit review. Personally I'd like to see the definitions require pre-entries to open for A/B events AT LEAST 8 weeks before the event and not to close until at least 14 days before, C events to open at least 6 weeks before and remain open till 7 days before and all level D events to have guaranteed pre-entries! I'd also suggest that knowing your actual start time (except when there is a genuine competition reason) should not be something announced very close to the event to help with travel planning. All events should specify the walk in (and out) at the time of entries. And I'd like to see level A/B organisers at least, have to consider how you get there on public transport. But I would probably upset some people by saying that Level D events are probably actually where controllers are needed the most - they are organised/planned by the least experienced people who need some oversight, and often have some of the least experienced competitors who are less equipped to adapt to error. You could have very soft rules for who the "controller" is but the current suggestion of "mentoring" is too vague IMHO.

One of the curiosities is that Level A events require a safety officer. Really that should be based on risk and might be needed for events which are lower level but the terrain, the number of competitors, the nature of the arena etc mean it is needed. Finally I'm surprised there is not a "capacity" cap on levels B/C/D. e.g. is it still a local event if it attracts 200 people from all across the region? is it still "just" a regional event if it has 500 people coming from all over?

[pete.owens]

I think this debate is bringing us full circle back to the original proposal for a 3 level event structure. Once you specify that a level C event has all the requirements to be a proper orienteering event, then any distinction between levels is bound to be trivial.

[Snail]

There are some good points being made here, which I suspect Rules Group will add to their (probably lengthy) agenda, as I am fairly sure some of them read and occasionally post here.

Not sure that capacity limits will work. Event sizes (at all levels) vary significantly across the country: parts of NIOA, WOA, SOA and SWOA will be very different to say SEOA or YHOA. Attendance also varies depending on time of year, weather, what else is on that day / weekend, etc. And SYO can have 400 at their schools-targeted Local events - which we should be applauding, not limiting!

[roadrunner]

Not sure that capacity limits will work. Event sizes (at all levels) vary significantly across the country: parts of NIOA, WOA, SOA and SWOA will be very different to say SEOA or YHOA. Attendance also varies depending on time of year, weather, what else is on that day / weekend, etc. And SYO can have 400 at their schools-targeted Local events - which we should be applauding, not limiting!

I agree - and when you register an event you can only have a rough idea of how many will enter. So what happens if your event is unexpectedly popular and exceeds the cap for the level it's been registered as? Declaring an event as "full" just because of an arbitrary cap, as opposed to a genuine limit due to access, start times, etc is not the way to make orienteering more popular!

[rf_fozzy]

OK but those are your opinions right? Because all of those things are in the rules for level B and not for C. And that's where a different controller might want to actually insist on following the rules.

Yes, you are correct. And the rules do stipulate those things, but....with some experience, you do get to understand what is "MUST" and what is "SHOULD" in the rules.

And also what is a bendable rule....

So, given national events are *usually* the biggest event a club puts on in a year, they generally do go a little further.

But taking your points, apart from the Food thing, most of these the things you put up as barriers are generally being done for Regional events - I'm not sure any club is not using an "approved" printer for maps for example, ditto for (mostly) using the correct map specifications etc.

I do have my own specific thing about the extra hassle of pin punches (adds ~1-2mins per control and I struggle to get all my controls out before an event when I'm planning at the best of times), but most issues with SI I've had in the past few years are from people not punching boxes from contactless - not usually an issue with boxes dying, although I admit it can be a problem if the SI manager isn't careful. But I'd be interested in the last time that someone had a box die and the backup punch was necessary (generally, without specific additional details, the remedy is going to be to void the leg before and after because it is probably affect a large number of people, although the sorts of decisions are always fraught with difficulty and controversy). Have to say, here's where a distinction between a terrain event where the controls might be out overnight and an urban where they go out as close to the event as possible (and do not usually use stakes) might be useful.

And yes, generally all events are planned significantly in advance. We planned our entire 2025 (actually Feb 2025 to Mar 2026) local events a few weeks back (we have flexibility about areas if required), and we have an outline plan about our regional events until early 2027 and the YHOA has just had it's 2026 Regional fixtures meeting to finalise dates (I believe they usually try to flag up national events for e.g. 2027 now too). 2027 and 2028 major events will also be being discussed if YHOA is holding any. I'd be amazed if other regions weren't doing something similar. There *is* some flexibility to allow for permissions and other issues arising.

If you look at the BOF fixtures list, you'll see that quite a lot of events already have dates through to September 2027....

All of this is routine, so shouldn't be a barrier to holding national events though.

But I would probably upset some people by saying that Level D events are probably actually where controllers are needed the most - they are organised/planned by the least experienced people who need some oversight, and often have some of the least experienced competitors who are less equipped to adapt to error. You could have very soft rules for who the "controller" is but the current suggestion of "mentoring" is too vague IMHO.

I agree with this, but it will come down to what resources clubs have with regards controllers. We've just moved to assign controllers to all our Local events to do precisely what you say - and also to keep controllers in the habit of controlling and give newer controllers opportunities to practise. However, at AIRE, we are lucky - we've got something like ~15 active controllers so can share out the workload (in fact one of the reasons we've appointed the controllers is to share out the workload amongst everyone as about 3-4 of us were doing most of our local events) - not every club will have this kind of resource.

[King Penguin]

... and full credit to AIRE for looking to the future and runnning a course for upgrading Controllers from C to B last weekend.

[Atomic]

Yes, you are correct. And the rules do stipulate those things, but....with some experience, you do get to understand what is "MUST" and what is "SHOULD" in the rules.

my experience is different controllers have different views. Some are by the book and some are pragmatic. I can't even attribute it to how long they've been controllers, I think its just a personality thing. Which is why if 70% of controllers are not enforcing a rule anyway with no downside it probably needs removed. Other club committees are thinking that they will have to follow ALL the rules and getting agreement from above on dates, venues (and any changes) will be harder. It may not be reality - but I am telling you it is perception.

I agree with this, but it will come down to what resources clubs have with regards controllers.

I agree but perhaps a level D controllers course could be very light touch. It might even be a way to lure people into the controller pathway. If we want the sport to be sustainable that means new blood coming in and enjoying it at level D events - which means controls in the right place, fair competition, well thought out courses etc.