Peter Palmer Relays
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
It clashed with a juniors competition in Scotland this year which is why you had no Scottish clubs. Pairs though, what about pairs of juniors going out and the first one back hands over. This can get some of the more reluctant / less experienced orienteers going round together. It could be optional. Either you can have one or two on the easier legs.
- housewife
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
Either you can have one or two on the easier legs.
The teams already can: The Yellow leg may have up to three runners per team. Each team's runners all start together when their Orange leg runner finishes. The first Yellow runner to finish hands over to the final leg runner.
- SJC
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
buzz wrote:... From the feedback I've heard over they years, the event is massively popular among the kids who give it try, its just that not many get the chance.
Many of the clubs we talked to ahead of the Sheffield event just didn't have enough juniors to make up a team, or didn't have anyone to organise or coach them. ...
100% agree on the first: it is an adventure. BO ought to have the data on the number of juniors by club, and perhaps more importantly the number who have completed a certain number or level of events so likely to be confident enough to join a relay team. If reducing the team size by one or two could significantly increase the number of clubs able to get a team together then it could be worth considering.
That's certainly unfortunate, given the small number of events specifically aimed at juniors.housewife wrote:It clashed with a juniors competition in Scotland this year which is why you had no Scottish clubs.
Kudos to COBOC for organising an event that they (or any surrounding clubs) didn't have any participation in.
- Snail
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
Snail wrote:buzz wrote:...
Kudos to COBOC for organising an event that they (or any surrounding clubs) didn't have any participation in.
Mmmm, yes kudos to COBOC. But, if that's the case, it might be useful to know why they were unable to field (a) team(s)?
Last edited by DaveK on Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DaveK - green
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
DaveK wrote:Snail wrote:buzz wrote:...
Kudos to COBOC for organising an event that they (or any surrounding clubs) didn't have any participation in.
Mmmm, yes kudos to COBOC. But, if that's the case, it would might be useful to know why they were unable to field (a) team(s)?
COBOC is a tiny club with very few, if any, junior members. They run a successful series of introductory park events, but this doesn't (currently) feed through into broader
participation.
In fact, no West Mids club could field a full team. WCH and OD had a combined team, but even that was nc.
- spitalfields
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
SeanC wrote:The 'must be a female/females rule'. I don't think it stands up to scrutiny. If the aim is to somehow influence clubs to recruit more female juniors because they are unrepresented.. what about other unrepresented groups? Why just this one?
Orienteering categorises competitors by age and gender. What other categories would you like to introduce?
I would think that the rule is designed to make as many clubs competitive as possible rather than to encourage female participation. A big club like SYO could put out several strong teams of all boys. A club like Aire can usually raise a team but in the time I've been in the club our best team would always have included some girls. I would think that is true of most clubs, so insisting that all teams must include some girls levels the playing field a little bit. You are right that it would discourage clubs that only have boys but are there actually any clubs out there who would have gone if this rule was changed?
- frostbite
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
COBOC last had a good supply of juniors when Peter Christopher was head at King Edwards Aston. When he retired no other member of staff would take it on and orienteering at the school dried up, as did COBOC's supply of (male) juniors.
curro ergo sum
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King Penguin - addict
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
Is it true that the Peter Palmers are in Buckinghamshire in 2023?
It would be really good to see a great turnout from all the southern and Midlands regions.
You'll nae be seein' anyone frae bonny Skotlan
It would be really good to see a great turnout from all the southern and Midlands regions.
You'll nae be seein' anyone frae bonny Skotlan
From small acorns great Oak trees grow.
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Lard - diehard
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
I think 2023 is at Stowe. (So yes, Buckinghamshire)
- Snail
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
I don't want to get hung up on the 'must have females' rule as I think removing it would be a marginal gain at best. When over 80% of clubs aren't providing teams to the Peter Palmer relay something more than one marginal gain is needed, though obviously any improvement is better than nothing. Someone better at stats than me can calculate the chances of 4 juniors who want to enter the daybreak relay being all male.
Who own the Peter Palmer Relays? Buzz - I've contacted British Orienteering to ask. From the answers I've had so far it seems to be the Events and Competitions Committee. There isn't a Junior Development Group anymore, and even the Development Committee hasn't met since 2018 if it still exists (see https://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/steering_groups ). There isn't a development officer looking at juniors. I was directed to a helpful man called Howard Blackman who is the 'Club Support Officer'.
The more I think about it, the idea of clubs with strong junior sections partnering with those with weaker junior sections seems to have the most potential, with the carrot of the weaker clubs juniors being able to compete in the Peter Palmer relays, and the Yvette Baker Trophy in joint teams, but with further benefits through sharing of coaching, juniors socialising etc.
Buzz - I get the impression from this quote you are in a big club and may not fully empathise with how tough doing development in small clubs maybe half or a third of the size of yours can be. I think a typical scenario is that if a junior captain/coach/co-ordinator can be found, that person can easily get dispirited when so few juniors are interested in travelling to bigger events or even going to coaching. There is then negative feedback with junior co-ordinators organising less things, and juniors in small clubs more likely to drop out through lack of opportunities to go to good competitions or get good quality coaching. You can end up with a junior co-ordinator in name only, and the only juniors that break through are the small number with super keen expert orienteer parents that take them to regionals/JK etc and can do their own coaching. Small clubs can only break out of this cycle with a superhuman effort such as Phil Conway and others did at GO, or getting lucky with the birth rate of their keen orienteers.
With big (junior) club / small club partnerships, then the clubs can help each other to help the small clubs break out of this negative cycle. The big clubs might benefit by utililising the volunteer potential of junior co-ordinator/coach etc of the small club through joint coaching sessions/organising joint entries etc.
I've shared this idea with Howard.
Who own the Peter Palmer Relays? Buzz - I've contacted British Orienteering to ask. From the answers I've had so far it seems to be the Events and Competitions Committee. There isn't a Junior Development Group anymore, and even the Development Committee hasn't met since 2018 if it still exists (see https://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/steering_groups ). There isn't a development officer looking at juniors. I was directed to a helpful man called Howard Blackman who is the 'Club Support Officer'.
The more I think about it, the idea of clubs with strong junior sections partnering with those with weaker junior sections seems to have the most potential, with the carrot of the weaker clubs juniors being able to compete in the Peter Palmer relays, and the Yvette Baker Trophy in joint teams, but with further benefits through sharing of coaching, juniors socialising etc.
buzz wrote:Some clubs just didn't seem interested in encouraging juniors at all - not much you can do for them.
Buzz - I get the impression from this quote you are in a big club and may not fully empathise with how tough doing development in small clubs maybe half or a third of the size of yours can be. I think a typical scenario is that if a junior captain/coach/co-ordinator can be found, that person can easily get dispirited when so few juniors are interested in travelling to bigger events or even going to coaching. There is then negative feedback with junior co-ordinators organising less things, and juniors in small clubs more likely to drop out through lack of opportunities to go to good competitions or get good quality coaching. You can end up with a junior co-ordinator in name only, and the only juniors that break through are the small number with super keen expert orienteer parents that take them to regionals/JK etc and can do their own coaching. Small clubs can only break out of this cycle with a superhuman effort such as Phil Conway and others did at GO, or getting lucky with the birth rate of their keen orienteers.
With big (junior) club / small club partnerships, then the clubs can help each other to help the small clubs break out of this negative cycle. The big clubs might benefit by utililising the volunteer potential of junior co-ordinator/coach etc of the small club through joint coaching sessions/organising joint entries etc.
I've shared this idea with Howard.
- SeanC
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
SeanC wrote: You can end up with a junior co-ordinator in name only, and the only juniors that break through are the small number with super keen expert orienteer parents that take them to regionals/JK etc and can do their own coaching.
I suspect this is the default position for the majority of clubs. At the JIRCS last weekend, it appears that Scotland and YH were the only two regions able to field a full team. Seven out of 12 were unable to field sufficient runners to have a full complement of 12 scorers.
- spitalfields
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
SeanC wrote:...With big (junior) club / small club partnerships, then the clubs can help each other to help the small clubs break out of this negative cycle. T...
Although it might just lead to the juniors from the small club wanting to, and persuading their parents to, switch clubs!
I suspect the problem isn't just at junior level. Over a period I think membership numbers have roughly halved. But we still have broadly the same number of clubs. In the Compass Sport Cup/Trophy the 'large/small club' threshold is being reduced because there are now so few clubs in the Cup. But every small club still has to fill core posts (some or all of chair / sec / treasurer / membership / equipment / mapping / newsletter ... ), so may struggle to fill positions such as junior coaches and other more niche areas. In parts of the country we should perhaps be encouraging smaller clubs to simply merge, which would potentially release a bunch of volunteers to concentrate more on juniors, and recruitment in general.
- Snail
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
Snail wrote:Although it might just lead to the juniors from the small club wanting to, and persuading their parents to, switch clubs!
Unfortunately such fears are the kind of fears that stop most meaningful change in orienteering.
Some juniors might switch clubs. Some might switch clubs instead of quitting the sport. Some juniors from the small club who might otherwise have quit the sport might stay in the sport if enthused following the chance to compete at the Peter Palmer and YBT competitions. It will be impossible to prove a cause and effect. The one thing that is certain is that leaving things as they are will not make the Peter Palmer Relays a viable competition long term.
Merging clubs - yes I agree with you Snail, but it's not going to happen. There are people who've dedicated so many years to their club and who will see it as part of their life thrown away. Many others won't want the hassle that comes with clubs merging. I think a few years ago there was a proposal for WESSEX and WIM to merge, two similar sized clubs next to each other, the ideal scenario. It was voted down I believe.
Co-operation between clubs is achievable and shouldn't cause a ruckus at committee meetings
- SeanC
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
There are one or two examples of clubs merging, or one closing and the marority of members switching to another nearby club, and a few others going elsewhere e.g. MEROC, WYE.
I can think of a few others where I think merging is the only viable long-term future, but i will not name them publically here .....
I can think of a few others where I think merging is the only viable long-term future, but i will not name them publically here .....
curro ergo sum
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Re: Peter Palmer Relays
SeanC wrote:Buzz - I get the impression from this quote you are in a big club and may not fully empathise with how tough doing development in small clubs maybe half or a third of the size of yours can be.
You make a good point - its definitely much harder for smaller clubs to start and sustain a junior section.
Its also much easier for city based clubs like ours with lots of schools, woods and parks in close proximity. Although that doesn't explain why the likes of Nottingham, Bristol and Manchester weren't able to field teams this year.
The idea to for small clubs to work together in local groups for things like junior development seems a good one and the Peter Palmer Relays supports this by allowing competitive teams from multiple local clubs.
Junior development typically relies on at least one dedicated individual, usually a parent, to drive things particularly getting things started, but it also needs the support of the club. I've come across examples where individuals have tried to get a junior section up and running but have run up against anti-junior sentiments from their club.
Also when the original driving force leaves its sometimes hard to fill the void. Ideally junior coordinator/coaches would involve parents and local orienteers and delegate where possible allowing them to do things their way to give the best chance of things continuing in their absence.
To oblivion and beyond....
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