CompassSport Cup/Trophy

[King Penguin]

"This year" or "Last year" ?
Maybe Graeme means Forest of Dean is too far for them - much more likely than chez Tullie.

[afterthought]

Wow what a fantastic win by Derwent Valley Orienteers at Fineshade! I trust Derbyshire orienteering is buzzing this week. Very well done to DVO, and I look forward to CompassSport giving us something to read about some of the heroes when the round is written up. I'm looking forward to your hosting of the British Middle Champs.

Regarding scoring: I suggest the aim should be to encourage turnout, rather than chase an illusion of fairness. And given the demographic discussions nearby on this forum, anything that rewards a carload of 21s, or a full family car coming out for a social day with their club would seem best.

I wonder what the actual effect of the current system is:

Does the 4 point step on the scale for the junior classes, compared to 1 point on brown, mean that the competition between our M/W16 and your M/W16 is four times more important for the result than the competition between our M21 and your M21?

Does the fact that all scales start at 100 mean clubs focus more on getting out occasional orinteers for the smaller classes rather than the brown and blue?

[King Penguin]

Brown is rapidly becomming one of the smaller classes......

[awk]

Does the fact that all scales start at 100 mean clubs focus more on getting out occasional orinteers for the smaller classes rather than the brown and blue?

I doubt it - I suspect most clubs will be working hard at getting as many out as possible in all classes - even when not counting you can still have a significant effect on the overall scores.

[seabird]

I'd agree with awk, but also add it would deem obvious that clubs will put an additional effort into late recruiting in any classes that appeared poorly represented in their club's entry list.

Trying to plan by deliberately discouraging representation in some classes would most likely be a doomed strategy.

[graeme]

Does the fact that all scales start at 100 mean clubs focus more on getting out occasional orinteers for the smaller classes rather than the brown and blue?

The top of the scale doesn't enter into it, but since we have a couple of 21s, we don't have any interest in occasional 21-40s who can't help make a team. I don't know it that's generally true, if it was I suppose the sport would find itself short on 21-40s: is that the case?

[smf]

Certainly, nobody will travel for an incomplete team (e.g. once it was clear that the family with the demographically-necessary juniors wouldn't travel, everyone in INT decided not to come to the final this year)

Same here at ESOC. Our members would rather go to the BASOC Highland WOLF weekend (3 events including a SOL), than the CSC final.

[awk]

Same here at ESOC. Our members would rather go to the BASOC Highland WOLF weekend (3 events including a SOL), than the CSC final.

I think you could well find that whatever the scoring: combination of orienteers' individualism, traditional Scottish reluctance to travel south of the border, perception of forests, and pure distance. It's one reason why, when the YBT was set up, it was focused on England and Wales. (None of that is meant to be judgemental by the way, simply the circumstances).

Maybe one solution, that would ensure some spread but enable more lower scorers to be counted from any one class, would be to get rid of the max numbers per class rules, replaced by the requirement that each club score must include runners from, say, 5 or 6 of the 8 different classes (both LG and both O counting as one class each). It would certainly be simpler.

[graeme]

I think you could well find that whatever the scoring: combination of orienteers' individualism, traditional Scottish reluctance to travel south of the border, perception of forests, and pure distance.

On the other hand, since the rules became flexible enough to allow Scottish clubs to actually bring a full team (yes, it used to be even more inflexible!), we've kept English paws off the Trophy since 2006 and grabbed all the silver medals since 2010.

INT could have brought 13 people to Bristol (if not a top team). With the flexible scoring system I suggest, at the end of the day, we'd probably have been well beaten by better orienteers. That's what happens in a proper sport, and we could at least travel with our dreams of an upset. With the current system, we know we are beaten before we begin by demographics - that's rubbish, and it's why we vote with our feet.

[lindseyk]

One of the things that struck us about the 2012 Final was that everyone was very chipper despite the awful weather and people were mucking in for the good of their club. Yes, we do some relays events during the year but somehow the CSC/T feels more "clubby" and it would be sad if that aspect got lost in the drive to find the perfect scoring system.

Roxburgh Reivers will be there in the Forest of Dean and if we manage to beat a few clubs we'll be happy.

[deebee]

How about - holding the National Club Championships on Day 2 or 3 of the JK? All age classes count (A courses only of course, the 100 or so M55-65s are not worthy ) and the highest scorer for each club scores in that class. 100 points (or, the number of points there are registered clubs if you want to be pedantic) to the winner, 99 for second etc etc etc.
No problems with selection, loading classes 'we've only got 2 M21s' 'we can't agree on a date' 'it's unfair bleat bleat bleat...