Urban race classes

[greywolf]

The British Sprints Championships is a different thing altogether and is designed to occupy one day of a weekend, ideally combined with the British Middle Distance Championships. It has two races rather than one as the strong supposition when the structure was set up was that it would attract fewer competitors if there were only one race (back to the value for money brigade again!).

Yes, sorry I wasn't clear - I would keep the Elite Sprints and Age Class MIddle weekend as it was this year*.... and then if we really really need an age class sprint champs then rather than make that some stand-alone thing, or mess up the elite race, why not use the JK sprint - which is the biggest sprint race of the year...

It's not just WOC that the qualification+finals model is mimicking either; don't forget that WMOC has the same structure too ... and many more of us get the chance to compete at WMOC than at WOC!

True...but then the majority of classes are large enough to justify heats - at WMOC 2010 even W70 has 118 entries.

*edit: but move it into the autumn to reduce spring fixtures congestion

[awk]

The key to both these successes was belief. Belief that the goals were achievable, this translating into a positive attitude and effective promotion.

Quite right, and a lot of us believed the format we had (and one that was seeing a growing trend) was a good one.
This is nothing about pessimism DJM. Some of us were very optimistic about the way things were, and want to see evidence (not just optimism) for the worth of a change. Not least because I've been told directly by a very authoritative individual that this was a marketing decision, which means it was nothing to do with the quality of competition.

This is just twisting the figures. Andy

No it's not - I am merely using the figures you supplied.

....you are one of the biggest proponents of disregarding age and wanting to run against those of similar ability, so why mention competing against 11 M55s instead of including all the other runners as well?

Exactly: note the words 'against those of similar ability'. There is no way that the new system delivers this, prefiltering the 'groupings' using a limited set of (largely unrelated) age classes, and thus filtering out the majority of people of similar ability across other groupings.
But then, the groupings are largely irrelevant. For all the superficial dressing, people are not competing against those outside their age class. As an M50 (I used M55 as an example because they were the ones you had quoted), the results of other age classesin the grouping are irrelevant (only M45 in my case). We're not competing against them, merely running the same course!

And that's the limit of competition. Nobody of similar ability below 45 or above 54.

Last year, I was in a class of 200+, in a heat of 60, and in a final where there were 32 runners within a minute either side of me.

Well, the M55 model I'm working with has a "class" of 140 and heats of 46 or 47. Aren't we in the same ball park here?

No we're not, as I've explained above, also bearing in mind that I'm talking about a proven entry, you're still talking about a hoped for entry, which is somewhat greater than anything to date other than for the JK, which has particular reasons for attracting its numbers.

Finally, how many other sports merge masters and open championships? Not many, because they know it's the wrong way to go, and that you need a championship structure that does not dilute or distract competition. But then they obviously don't need to market their sports, do they, and we obviously know better, don't we?!

Greywolf - I think you've probably come up with the best answer so far, although I would have liked to have seen the separate age class champs at least be given a chance - but unfortunately it was a new idea that was never really given a realistic chance. Obviously the Board didn't 'believe' in it enough, and weren't sufficiently 'optimistic'. Cuts both ways.

[DJM]

note the words 'against those of similar ability'. There is no way that the new system delivers this

I would argue that the new system, by filtering out those classes which are either much faster or much slower than your own, increases the chance of similar ability competition!

And, if the implication is that the Elite Sprint Championships (as was) does provide competition against people of similar ability well, yes it does, but only at the elite end, and not for the likes of awk or me.

Take for example my heat at this year's Elite Champs. The ability range (as measured by rankings positions) varied gradually from 4th to 1904th (counting those with 6 sets of points) - with only a small handful with positions close to mine. Not many for me to compete with on similar ground ...

[awk]

note the words 'against those of similar ability'. There is no way that the new system delivers this

I would argue that the new system, by filtering out those classes which are either much faster or much slower than your own, increases the chance of similar ability competition!

And, if the implication is that the Elite Sprint Championships (as was) does provide competition against people of similar ability well, yes it does, but only at the elite end, and not for the likes of awk or me.

David, this simply doesn't stand up to even a cursory examination. To give you an example: At last year's British Elite, I finished 21st in Men's D final. There were 12 runners within one minute in front of me, 19 within one minute behind.

The age class split of those 31 was as follows:
M16: 2
M21: 3
M40: 4
M45: 5
M50: 4
M55: 3
M60: 8
M65: 2

My age class represents just 13%, my 'grouping' just 29%, both small minorities. Prefiltering by age would have reduced my quality of competition dramatically. Indeed, I had more close competition from the under-35s than from my own class!

You are working under the false assumption that age necessarily equates to speed. It doesn't.

[roadrunner]

Surely the difference is because DJM was referring to his heat, which obviously should span the full speed/ability range if the allocations have been done well, while AWK is referring to his final, which will obviously tend to contain runners within a given speed range, at least judged by how they performed at the heats. The only exception would be the lowest final, because this will contain fast runners who mispunched in their heat.

I too have enjoyed running the British Elite Sprints (even though there's no way I'm an elite orienteer), but I wonder if the format could support all the age classes if it became as popular as some have suggested. 720 runners would mean 12 heats (1 min start interval, 1 hour start window), then a similar number of finals - and all the heats need comparable courses, though the finals could vary a bit more, with the lower ranked ones being slightly shorter, as was the case when it was at Milton Keynes. Would this many courses of the appropriate lengths be possible in many areas?

[Gnitworp]

There would be less heats, surely, than in Age Class Champs with comparable numbers because some of the heats in the smaller subdivided age classes will be smaller than the equal Elite heats.

Bring on multiple multiple heats where nobody knows who's running what - a gafflers paradise

[awk]

Surely the difference is because DJM was referring to his heat, which obviously should span the full speed/ability range if the allocations have been done well, while AWK is referring to his final, which will obviously tend to contain runners within a given speed range, at least judged by how they performed at the heats.t.

DJM is also talking about the ranking range. However, what matters is what people do on the day, not their ranking. In the heat at the same championships last year, I had 15 people finishing within 1 minute of me - whilst DJM is predicting about 11-12 people in a well populated age class in a heat (and whatever DJM says, it's only your age class that counts in the new format).

I too have enjoyed running the British Elite Sprints (even though there's no way I'm an elite orienteer), but I wonder if the format could support all the age classes if it became as popular as some have suggested.

I think the operative word is 'some'. The figures over the past few years, whilst overall showing a rising trend, indicate that the format had room to continue for the foreseeable future. This was NOT about creating a format to make the numbers at the championships manageable - that is a complete red herring. Nor was it about improving the competition, because it simply doesn't. If it had been, both Senior and Junior Competitions Groups might well have been in favour of changes (but it was not discussed in this context as this was irrelevant). This merger was ALL about, apparently, creating a 'marketable' product, and was imposed on the two groups, and others, by the Board. That is why I await the new sponsor and the large injection of cash with such interest.

Personally, I also think the whole issue will backfire on the Elite Group as well (who were in favour of merger), as the competition will now move from one where everybody was interested in what was going on in the elite, as we were all competitors in the same competition, to one where the elite is just another class, and we're all focused on our own competitions.

[NeilC]

At some point the results of the heats (and finals) will be listed by course (as well as class) in order to calculate ranking points. In this respect it will be similar to Nottingham where we didn't know which heat we were in - and therefore who we were running against - until the start. I fully understand AWK's point that it probably won't feel like you are actually competing against all of those on your heat course. Anyhow we are where we are and trying to get the new format to work as well as possible. I hope that people don't decide not to come as a protest.

[SJC]

I hope that people don't decide not to come as a protest.

Agreed. It would be a pity to see a lot of work go to waste.
A much better form of protest has already been suggested ......

Let's start by all entering elite at next year's 'all age' sprint championships.

[Gnitworp]

...and write to CompassSport to get more people aware of the protest movement.