Scottish Sprint

[IanD]

I think titles, trophies and medals should be restricted to eligible people, Scots in this case. Prizes should be open.

When an Englishman finished fastest in the H50 French Night Championship last year, he got the winner's box of goodies, but not the trophy or a medal. The second finisher got the trophy, the gold medal, and the runners-up's box of goodies.

In Britain, the prizes would normally be academic as we rarely have any.

[EddieH]

I suspect you have a goodidea of my views Graeme, and I am pleased how many replies here implicicitly agree.

IN BRIEF:

There should be just as many titles for sprint as there are for long. Medals/ prizes/ trophies they don't matter although assuming you have a prizegiving you must not call people up and give them nothing at all - (thoroughly embarassing for everyone).

Courses should be few in number with decent numbers of ages on each course.

Start interval should NOT be less than 1 minute - this is a championship.


REASONING:

If you allow very few champions you are stressing to older punters that this is an elite event and that this event is less important than the "Scottish Championships" (which should be renamed the Scottish long? distance Champs).

You are providing more people and clubs the opportunity to publicise their sport, and to create role models in their area which in turn helps to grow the sport.

By providing few courses you are maximising competition for those that like to run against as many people as possible.


The problem of an older vet beating a younger one on the same course is a difficult one, but has always occured in standard orienteering where the view taken has to my knowledge to award the younger persoin that was in fact beaten by an older class competitor to take the title. The benefit here is the publicity one, but a different take would be acceptable to me - it would simply be inconsistent with other occasions sch as the night champs where it must happen a great deal more frequently.

In any case once you get to 45 +, I reckon there will be few cases of this where the top guys turn out - the fact is we do get slower, and eyesight does deteriorate etc.

[Roger]

I think titles, trophies and medals should be restricted to eligible people, Scots in this case. Prizes should be open.

Agreed.

And people should be eligible for the most prestigious award on their course: e.g. clearly, a W21 running up on M open, different to the W Open course, should be able to take the M21 / M open trophy. Less clearly, a 51-year-old who's entered as an M50 but beats all the 45- to 49-year-olds on the same (shared) course should take the M45 trophy / title / prize. And if competitors are limited to just one prize, which they probably should be, the second-placed M50 would take the M50 prize... and title too?

However, I've seen many variants on this over the years; e.g. does 'second vet' outrank 'third man', or not? The organisers have the right to do whatever they wish. As a SCOA member, I have a medal from the 2008 SE Sprints at Sussex University, but received only a name-check after being quickest Vet at this year's excellent competition a couple of weeks ago. No complaint from me (although on the other hand those Dorset biscuits from the 2009 SW champs were delicious...).

The only time I've really felt that a prize allocation was grossly unfair was when the approx 8th-placer in a road race received the '3rd man' prize (edit: formerly said '3rd senior man' which would have been less egregious) while the 6th- and 7th-placers, as 4th and 5th vets, got nothing. (No personal axe to grind here -- I was further down.)

[DJM]

All British Championships Rules from 2011 have a clause which says

Competitors are only eligible for medals and trophies in the age class they have entered

Thus the M50 in Rogers's example who beats all M50s and M45s on the same course wins the M50 trophy if he'd entered as an M50 or the M45 trophy had he entered, for whatever reason, as an M45.

NB There are various exceptions to this rule for M/W18/20/21E if they run the same course and where the ECG has asked that different rules apply.

[Roger]

Leaving aside the fact that British Champs rules won't apply to most of the races mentioned here (and in particular to the Scottish Sprints that are the subject of this consultation), will all future entry forms and on-line systems for these British Champs races ask which class you'd like to enter as well as what your age-class actually is?

[keever]

I think it's silly to try to spread the prizes/medals around rather than give them to the people who actually won them.

[awk]

Speaking as an Englishman, so no real voice in this debate (but when has that ever stopped me), on the distribution of prizes, I totally agree with keever. I do remember 'receiving' a prize in one race (aeons ago now!) when an older person had beaten me. I didn't accept it - it was meaningless to me as I hadn't really won it. Also agree with those who advocate prizes to the open winners, trophies to the geographically eligible champions.

However, a lot of this would be solved if we defaulted to 10-year age bands in British orienteering, and only went to 5-year bands in events where numbers are likely to require it.

(Later edit: I should have said, though, that I far prefer the current urban race default of Vets (40+), Supervets (55+), and maybe Ultravets (65/70+))

[greywolf]

IMHO the rules & guidelines aren't that bad at the mo...but there's clearly a need for the Competitions Convener to remind the organising club of certain basic aspects:
There will be competitions for juniors (18-), seniors and veterans (40+). Sticking a note up on the SOA website a few days after the event does not constitute holding a veterans (40+) competition
I would add a "supervets" (55+ or maybe 60+)class and leave it at that as the basic minimum 8 classes, with scope for the organising club to add additional classes or award additional prizes (esp for Juniors) as they wish.
These classes should be combined onto as few courses as possible - the only reason to have more than the 3 courses of this year's event would be if the entry was so large it couldn't be accommodated in the available start window.
Starts at 1 min interval...with the the classes separated - e.g all 18-, then all 40+, then all seniors. There's always going to be some element of following and advantage based on start lists - but if you get caught and then follow someone in your own class then you aren't going to win..mixing starters in different classes on the same course allows someone to win their class by following someone quicker in a different class.
Eligibility: I'd vote for common eligibility rules across Scotland, Wales and the regions...or at least the agreement that an individual could only be Champion of one - seems bizarre that someone can be simultaneously Scottish, Welsh and Southern Champion. More generally, someone needs to clarify BOF eligibility rules which currently say "A competitor shall only compete for the open and / or closed club which is indicated on their British Orienteering membership card for that year." and don't take into account that individuals having dual club membership is far too complicated for the shiny hi-tech BOF database to get its silicon head round... whereas eligibility for Scottish champs (unless by birth or parentage) requires that you "be a member of the Scottish Orienteering Association" rather than be a member of a Scottish club...can you be one and not the other?

[graeme]

"be a member of the Scottish Orienteering Association" rather than be a member of a Scottish club...can you be one and not the other?

Yes.
I think keever, for example, is a member of EUOC and not SOA. Most of EUOC aren't SOA members, so why (the argument runs) should we give trophies to an Englishman who wont join SOA even when living in Scotland.

[frog]

Why isn't Euoc as a Scottish club automatically affiliated to the SOA? Is it a cost thing? No idea how much our club pays the SOA. It makes sense for all clubs in Scotland to be affiliated to the SOA. Perhaps the SOA could have a smaller affiliation fee for student clubs if it's a cost thing.

[greywolf]

Most of EUOC aren't SOA members so why (the argument runs) should we give trophies to an Englishman who wont join SOA even when living in Scotland.

Why isn't Euoc as a Scottish club automatically affiliated to the SOA?

EUOC is affiliated to SOA - however, when you join/renew your BOF membership you have no option to either register a second club or choose your association (unless you are joining one of the military clubs)- you name your club and the system automatically allocates you to an association. Most members of EUOC or any other uni are BOF-registered with their "home" clubs - e.g. the ranking list (which uses official BOF membership) shows only 4 EUOC members - so they would have to abandon their home club (unless it is Scottish) and join BOF with EUOC as their first club to become a SOA member.
Mind you, the SOA website http://www.scottish-orienteering.org/so ... formation/ says "To join the SOA you just join British Orienteering, at either Local or National level." which doesn't really clarify things....

The more important issue is the line in the BOF rules which says "A competitor shall only compete for the open and / or closed club which is indicated on their British Orienteering membership card for that year." My membership card only records 1 club (and BOF have told me they don't collect details of second clubs) - does anyone here have two clubs listed on their membership card?

If membership cards really only list the first claim club then there are a lot of ineligble competitors and particularly relay teams out there just waiting for a protest...

[EddieH]

Traditionally the rules have always allowed you to compete for one open and one closed club in a year. As far as I am aware the rules group never intended to change this. BOF's dropping of the second club from membership cards inadvertantly (I believe) caused this problem.

As far as I can see no-one follows the letter of the ruling as it now is. I don't believe this was ever intended by rules group, and as you say Graywolf, if it were then there have been a lotof ineligible trophies given out in the past 2 years.

[frog]

If you move to Edinburgh to do a degree for 4 years though why would you not change your club to EUOC or one of the Ed clubs? Keeping a club where you no longer live as your main club seems a bit daft to me.
Isn't part of growing up and moving away from your parents about joining new clubs where you live as an adult? Fair enough be a social member of the club near your parents' house but won't your main club be near your main abode?

[RS]

Frog, it could be a matter of cost. You can stay on family membership till you are 25, even when not a student.

[Tatty]

Junior joined Clyde when he went to Edinburgh as it was the cheapest open club
Now he just belongs to EUOC - too long away from home!